WTF Macron? What happened to “Liberté, égalité, fraternité”? This is some “bullshité” if you ask me.
He never gave a shit.
I remember Macron once was like “well, US is too free for us, China is too restrictive, we need to be in the middle”.
Phones should be turned off or left at home anyways when protesting. Here are my 10 commandments for engaging in protests:
1: never bring your wallet/ID. If you need to buy things, bring cash
2: either shut off your phone or leave it with your wallet. Recording police violence can be useful, in that case get the aclu app, a burner phone with the app, or an action camera
3: never speak to police under any circumstance
4: you can beat the charge but you can’t beat the ride
5: bring water, it’s more useful than for just drinking
6: bring hats, sunglasses, etc to avoid being identified by the state if it gets violent
7: wear good running shoes
8: know your rights, both federal and local, and when to use them
9: take out any contact lenses in case police use tear gas
10: stay aware of your surroundings; listen to picket line enforcers/community organizers
These are all fine in the US, but in other countries not carrying proof of identity can get you into some trouble, as can refusing to talk to the police. Know your local laws.
It is what people say about Germany but my teacher says that she didn’t have an id card for 10 years and only got one because of tour to a place organised by her university required to show id card to be put in their touring list. As far as her experience goes, no authority ever put her in trouble for not carrying an ID.
The same way that the police never put me in trouble for mu id card not having my address.
About not talking to the police, it is actually a right you have in Germany despite popular gossip saying otherwise.
The problem of not talking to the police is that the police can create reasons to put you in troubles for not doing so, as the police have the privilege of authority, power and legal/public trust.
But when questioned by the police, if it is worth, you have the right to have e lawer to answer it for you or to guide you on your answer according to laws.
Again, depends on the country and the laws. Growing up in Turkey, the first question my parents would ask me when I was heading out would be: “Do you have your ID on you?”
Getting caught without ID meant the police had any excuse they needed to bring you in and do whatever they wanted with you. While under normal conditions that isn’t a problem, you never know when things are about to go awry and lead you into an altercation from which you can’t return.
E.g. a misunderstanding between you and a cop in a dark alley, matching the description of a perp they’re looking for while looking suspicious, saying something you shouldn’t while in a place you shouldn’t be, etc.
Keep your ID on you, avoid loud/aggressive crowds, and don’t talk to cops if you don’t have to. Wise advice for those living in tumultuous regions of the world.
I’d say it’s likely the same in Germany. Just depends on the circumstances.
If you’re protesting, just expect to be arrested. Police already have reasons to want to arrest you, so talking to police only really gives them material to prosecute you when you are taken into custody. Talking to them may reduce their temptation to arrest you, but it certainly increases the chances they can charge you.
Don’t talk to the police, full stop. Doesn’t matter if you’re completely innocent, DONT TALK TO THEM. This is good advice generally but essential if you are protesting.
Fair enough, good points. That’s why it all about knowing your laws! Either way though, getting a charge for “obstruction of justice” is better than incriminating yourself.
Protests in modern times should change. Protests should turn city blocks into crazy multiday parties that are able to evade police and attract more and more people the longer it goes on.
Bring hot tubs and beer. Have bands playing good music. Offer free massages to people who can’t protest but are walking home from work and are kind of on the fence until you get your greasy protest hands on them and give em a beer and a little pat pat
If you stop a modern man, hand them a beer with back massage, that man will likely die for you. Good luck to any cops trying to shut you down when you got the 11th floor of the wall street stick market coming to your rally
Are you planning on protesting anytime soon? When and where. Youve sold it to me.
never bring your … ID
IRC illegal in France and plenty of other EU countries. That alone will cause you issues, even if they can’t pin anything else on you.
never speak to police under any circumstance
Miranda rights aren’t universal. For example, in the UK authorities may draw adverse inferences based on silence.
No, you don’t need to have an ID: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601
Yep but they can keep you or bring you un, because you cant make a proof of your identity. Its not entirely wrong
I mean, in several states within the US it’s illegal to protest without a permit. It’s better to act with your safety in mind than it is to obey oppressive laws.
Hahaha. Citizen, you may only express discontent we approve of you expressing.
You should definitely have a phone. Anyone who can afford one of those cheap phones where you just pay for minutes should have one. Get one that can take pictures/videos (I think most of them do nowadays?).
If you see police doing something illegal, the more cameras around the better. The ability to immediately upload that evidence to someone else or a safe cloud service is also important so they can’t delete it and you can’t lose it by the taking the device.
what does 4 mean?
You can always be found not guilty in court, but if the police want to take you in, it’s better to just go willingly
Even if you’re innocent or the charge is BS, you still have to go through the process of being arrested, transported, booked, held in jail and posting bail.
Even if you are in the right and court will release you…that could be in 3 or 4 days time after you have spent time under arrest and had the “ride” to holding cell.
The ride is the trip to jail.
Beating the charge means you are found not guilty in court.
either shut off your phone or leave it with your wallet
I think that the issue here is that it only takes one person carrying a vulnerable phone with a microphone to allow monitoring a given group. Your phone may be off, but…
That’s true, but it’s better for the vulnerable phone to not be yours
If they are allowed to do these other countries will follow suit. This is a dangerous precedent in which no one is safe regardless of boarders.
During the 2020 protests in Portland, Or the US Marshalls flew a plane equipped cell phone snooping equipment over downtown for hours every day. The equipment acts as a mock cell tower so mobile phone traffic in the area gets routed through their tools before going to an actual tower. It also collects data from wifi in the area, in addition to whatever unknown abilities it has. This was around the time anonymous federal agents were picking up people off the streets in white vans and hiding in bushes shooting pepperballs at people walking by.
They should have tons of audio and video of the insurrection too then right? Or is this only a tool we use on democrats?
While I agree the right gets more of a pass, the capitol does actually have its own cell network and they did bust people whose phones were connected inside.
The major difference between January 6th and Portland was that on J 6 the police presence was minimal while Portland had paramilitary outfits roaming the streets.
That sounds like a Stingray.
I’m not buying a phone that rats me out.
Show me you have my back apple / android
They don’t. If you’re going to have a smart phone and don’t want them up in your shit get LineageOS or GrapheneOS.
Only solution is an older phone with custom ROM
@hydra @Shartacus or a linux phone, with kaios / pmos. Still not ready for everyone, but I hope it will come soon enought
FYI KaiOS is spyware garbage moreso than stock Android w/ gapps. Download a GSI rom if you want to run stock android on most phones post Android 8.1
@stratosmacker ho I have learn about this system only a few days ago and had no time to look further. That explain why they advertise with so much google app… thanks for the info :)
Sadly not too many options where I live.
If there is a custom ROM on it anyway, why would it need to be older?
Newer phones are harder to get custom ROMs on and most of them don’t have them.
Yeah, like a Nokia 3210i
What kind of Orwellian shit is the french government pulling?
Look up the Pegasus Project. Governments have already been doing this. Now, they’re just doing it more openly.
At least what the French are doing is in the open. I remember when the
USEchelon program was leaked, what is their government up to now?The fact that they’re doing it out in the open is what really concerns me.
What are they doing in the dark if they’re okay with telling on themselves about this?
France following in NSW foot steps
I’ve never been so happy to have the ability to root my phone and flash a new OS onto it. This shit is absolutely insane, I’m surprised there isn’t more eyes on this from non-profits globally.
I’ve never been so happy to have the ability to root my phone and flash a new OS onto it.
Worry not, citizen! Soon they’ll make that illegal too. :)
Because you have a certain phone, or certain skills, or certain equipment? What makes you able?
No special skills or even a certain phone, although yes some equipment can sometimes be required. Honestly, though, almost anyone with some free time and will power will be able to root (Android)/Jailbreak (iOS) their phone and subsequently change the operating system it uses.
A good starting place for me was the XDA forums which I’ll link below, search for the section specific to your model phone and see what is available, software wise.
No special skill…
I know lots of people that A. Have no idea what model phone they got and B. It would at the very least take 10 min to guide them to where they can find it. Saying “all the information needed is available at a forum” would in itself be a step too complicated.Yeah but the bar for that skill is gradually lowering, just ask the old timers, it used to be hard to tie knots, hell some young guys can only barely just tie their own laces lol
My SO can’t even tie their own shoes… absolutely embarrassing. And they are an educated person who is teaching students in university.
I think some skills we take as trivial others just never bothered putting the time to master sue to a cost benefit analysis.
There are just so many things in the world.
True enough. And the persons I described are also the least likely to care about the issue described in the article.
yeah but then suddenly play store treats your mobile as rooted, and important every day apps wont work
I’ve not used play store for a number of years now, so I was unaware of this. I guess for those uninterested in getting your apps and updates from elsewhere, consider that this may cause issues with the play store, appreciate the heads up.
Most importantly: the banking-apps won’t work. And as a Dutchman, where creditcards are virtually non-existent, I need my banking-apps to pay my regular bills.
The are ways to make almost all banking apps work on a rooted, even de-googled, phone. See here: https://lemmy.world/post/683341
For what it’s worth, this isn’t the case, at least for me, using banking apps within the UK. I do need to keep the apps updated to maintain functionality, but with 3rd party stores offering auto updates it hasn’t been an issue thus far.
Not to say that your experience is the minority though, it’s entirely plausible my experience is the exception.
Use a nice rooted phone as your daily driver and keep a shitty burner to use on wifi for any such finicky apps. Keep it off so the camera/mic is useless.
The off button doesn’t actually turn your phone off anymore
It’s funny how ABN AMRO works on my rooted phone but the Toyota app for my car flags rooted phones as unsafe.
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Lol call it secure
This is the same government that says using an ad blocker, vpn, custom rom, linux and or encrypted messaging service puts you at higher suspicion of being a terrorist.
I see them enacting these policies now as the large number of pro labor protests fighting the government all over the country on pensions “reform”.
Well I’m sure terrorists don’t like seeing ads either but I’m not quite sure how they came to the conclusion that using an ad blocker makes you a terrorist.
France is a bit of a strange country though.
My guess in their logic is that you can’t be ad tracked.
That is of course if you believe that this blatantly authoritarian measure was actually done in response to terrorism.
They’re likely right for that assumption. Modern day terrorism I think would require a basic ability to use computers. It doesn’t make it likely, but more likely is probably right. I don’t expect much organized terrorism that’s not going to use some of those tools.
You’re right. If you’re a normie well, you’re a normie. Successor criminals and terrorists would not be tech normie’s and would certainly use some of these tools.
I still find further empowering the prosecutor I am state to be disgusting though.
Damn France and Macron are really leaning into the authoritarianism lately
T his is not new. He just stopped giving a shit about hiding it.
Yeah, scratch a centrist and a fascist bleeds
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literally “literally 1984”
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Read the article. Title is clickbait. It’s only with approval from a judge. You know, alternatively they could just arrest and imprison the person, which is what every country is doing. Not saying it’s without worrying, but there’s important nuance that most are missing.
P.S.
Absolute extremist attitudes like “nobody should be able” and so on, have absolutely no place in modern society. There’s always nuance. Libertarianism doesn’t work, and laws must be enforced. It sucks, but when there are forces that want to hurt people and destabilize societies, you can’t go by the rule that everyone is a saint. The world will punish this attitude.
Yes, the world isn’t perfect, but for ducks sake, quit sensationalizing anecdotes and representing them as “this always happens”. That’s dishonest.
So? Even with a warrant, thats not a power that people should have. No one, warrant or not, should be able to remotely activate your phone/camera/etc and monitor it. The fact that power exists means smart phones are an even bigger personal safety and privacy threat than they already were… and if police can do it with a warrant, then there are gonna be people who figure out how to do it without one and for far more malicious reasons.
Ah yes it’s ok to violate my rights, as long as a judge approves it.
Can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not.
If you are, what do you have against warrants? If someone kidnapped your friend and kept them locked away in their house. Don’t you want there to be a way for the police to legally rescue your friend if they have evidence on where they are being held?
because warrant or not, no one should have the power to remotely turn on your camera/mic/etc without your knowledge and monitor it.
For me it’s mostly against judges. Like judges that decide that because the victim of a rape doesn’t remember the rape (because it was so horrible her brain blocked it out), the perpetrator should be free.
Or those judges that decide that there’s not enough proof that a billionaire-owned chemical factory polluted a river that most of the fish died, even though there’s only one chemical factory on the river that could have done it.
(Those both are local issues you probably haven’t heard of, though I believe you’ve probably heard about many such cases)
Would you want any of those judges give a warrant to someone to spy on you?
I live in France. The government here is using every single tool they have to prosecute radical leftists and environmentalists while ignoring the fact that more than 60 % of the police force has fascist adjacent ideals. I do not want these people spying on me, period. This is not some libertarian horseshit, trust me.
Unfortunately extremely true… This guy calling an clickbait…
Whataboutism is a hell of a drug. I’m afraid people in many countries are so used to not having those freedoms that they look at us weird for trying to keep them.
i’ve even heard french say : its better to be poor and in security rather just be poor.
Its done. I dont trust society.
I get your opinion but you have to account for the fact that it’s not Le Pen who’s in the chair. And France is actually ranked quite high on the civil liberties. While I get your perspective, I believe that it’s exaggerated.
Our ranking is unfortunately not getting any better, just look at what is currently happening with Les soulèvements de la terre.
I understand Le Pen would be worse, I truly do. I actually voted against her in the last two elections. But imagine Le Pen in power, which is very likely to happen soon, with all those legal framework already in place. She is going to have the mother of all field days.
You absolutely can find my view to be an exaggeration. Some part of me hope it is. But I’m quite worried about our future as a country right now.
Well it’s good that you care. It’s the multitude of opinions and open discussion, what makes a democracy work.
Unfortunately we have siloes of opinions, so you’re pretty much either trying to yell in an echo chamber or at best, argue with a moderate like me. The moment you’re faced with the people leaning right, some of the rhetoric might be scary for them, and they might retract further into their own silo, where more and more extremist views are tolerated.
The key to a functioning society, is moderation in enforcement of law (so that the state continues to be the only one who is able to, and expected to exert force), and understanding of each other so that it remains an open dialog.
I’m originally from a country where society has degraded into 2 irreconcilable camps, and it got to the point where I can’t even stand my own parents because their echo chambers had lead them to extreme extremes. And I’m not the only one.
Right now what is paramount is a government that optimizes social well-being (think Finland), and the enforcement of those laws, because everyone from Putin (and the general club of autocrats) to fundamentalist fascists everywhere else, want to destabilize that right now. A prosperous democracy is a threat to all of them. Whether you like it or not, we are in the middle of an ideological war.
Well thank you for the thoughtful, respectful and engaging response.
I do not advocate for the state surrendering its authority, far from it. The problem lies, to my mind, within some very abuse prone legal frameworks that are currently being put into place. For example, in France, local “préfets” (which are unelected officials that act as local governors) have been steadily gaining more and more powers that cannot be democratically countermended, or at great expense: they can limit people’s movements, forbid demonstrations, etc.
That could be seen as a necessary measure against the rising polarization you talk about (a point on which we agree btw, 100%), but then again whenever the far right happens to be the one doing the agitating, the préfets are suspiciously slow to act.
For example, in Paris, the prefet did not forbid a neo Nazi march ending in an Aryan rock concert whereas a week before that he had forbidden multiple démonstrations against Macron’s pension reforms. And the list goes on. Our minister of the interior refused yesterday to condemn a police union campaign labelling rioters in Parisian suburbs as “pests to be eradicated”. This is not moderate.
Macron is not really a moderate. He acts like one and manages to feel like one from abroad perhaps. But here he is more and more leaning towards the exact type of authoritarian doctrin a moderate should, as you do, strive to impede. And the thing is, his actions, and the general apathy of many towards them, are reinforcing Le Pen’s chances come 2027. And that scares me.
we have that same nuance here in the united states and it’s be shown that the judge’s approval is nothing more than a rubber stamp.
I don’t think you solve one problem by introducing another problem. The solution to over-criminalization is to decriminalize things. If a person is a danger to society, charge them with a crime and let a jury of their peers decide their guilt. Hacking into someone’s property so that you can spy on them is absolutely not an alternative worth entertaining.
If the good guys can do it, even by the books, imagine what the bad guys can do.
Laws must be enforced, but not by treating privacy like a wet rag.
Persinally I hope we’ll see some mainstream devices that comes with a hardware toggle for the mic and a manual privacy shutter for the cameras.
Keep in mind that privacy is really a recent concept. Human societies never had privacy before the industrial revolution. Everybody knew everybody else and what they were doing. I do want my privacy, but modern technology makes it too easy to create and grow any organization that can rival the state in power. While we do have the power to influence and control the state, we have no power over competing organizations that act like authoritarian states.
There needs to be a balance, an amount of power that the state can exercise, that’s just right for keeping it as a monopoly on violence. Absolute privacy, where the state has transparency, is taking away all the power and advantages from the state and gives them to whoever wants to challenge that state.
In other words, nuance.
Uh huh, and if a rubber stamp judge gives wiretapping permission every time the cops ask for it?
Then your problem is the judicial system, isn’t it?
I’m sure the judge will say no
Can we ban clickbait
What the FUCK? Is there any uncorrupted government left on the planet?
uncorrupted government
Impossible, because that’s an oxymoron.
I mean, theorethically it should be possible. The problem is that government consists of people and it seems to me that people who actually want power are the people who should never have it.
Admit it you pulled that from Facebook quotes lol, this is why I give people the benefit of the doubt lol
No, I don’t use facebook, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the first or only person to say something like that. It’s not that deep, lol.
Antarctica? The open seas?
Do either of those have a government?
Uruguay?
France and the UK really have gone to hell in a hand basket. Dystopian bullshit. No wonder they are rioting.
We should be rioting as well, but we are too apathetic.
Don’t riot - the destruction of property has a very serious cost that the rioting society itself will have to bear once all is said and done (whether we get the change we want or not) and it means that efforts and money will have to be put into simply rebuilding rather than progressing. Do mass strikes instead; it hurts them much more, the public is much more likely to be on our side, and the pressure to give in in order to restart the economy will be much greater.
Except that France is already striking every other day. Nobody gives a fuck anymore. Strikes are a fact of life in france. They’re basically a free holiday for most. Striking is a national sport.
Every system can be improved and there is always more than just one pathway to any change
Agreed. We are slowly going the same way.
Not quite done with the last riot and want a new one it seems.
They better riot fast. Normalized camera peeking will change the tone there very quickly.
People will be stuffing their phones into couches or running water and shit, and some AI will be able to detect patterns of surveillance evasion and they won’t even have to do anything official about it just send the surveillance avoider a message in the form of a camera turning to follow them or something like “hey, we noticed you’re being sus”.
And then there will be huge incentive slope toward not avoiding surveillance. So people will have to fall back on hiding their thoughts.
And the mental strain will be enormous. And that will sap their fight.
Yeah I feel like all this surveillance normalisation needs to go the other way around, we should be the ones observing our systems and it’s outcomes not for a large AI to be observing us as individuals
Yes! And government employees should be under total surveillance. In return for their temporary expansion of power, they should submit to a temporary reduction in privacy.
And that surveillance shouldn’t just go into an archive to be retrieved by subpoena. It should be made available in real time to literally anyone at any time.
That’s government transparency in my book.
The leaders of France seem to forget that their citizens used to make people shorter for less.
Modern Tech plus AI - authoritarian regimes can’t ever be overthrown.
John Green’s “this machine kills fascists” sticker on his laptop on Crash Course has aged extremely poorly. More like makes life easier lol
this machine kills fascists
I just learned about Woody Guthrie because of this comment. Thanks!
Yeah nah, I would like to think AI systems could be used to prevent authoritarianism, develop anti failure systems and maximize potential human potential, but hey I’m just chucking it out there…
I am interested in the “how” part. Do they have such a single interface available?
