• DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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        6 days ago

        X thing you want isn’t the devs job

        Well, it is if they decide it is, and it isn’t if they decide it isn’t.

        That said, I do appreciate devs who put up native deb or rpm repos for the most common distros.

  • 56!@lemmy.ml
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    7 days ago

    They do? I’ve always seen that as being up to distro maintainers, and out of control of the devs.

    • renzev@lemmy.worldOP
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      4 days ago

      that website is such a joke, I can’t believe the guy’s still paying for the domain name… The whole argument boils down to “Many flatpak apps don’t make use of the sandbox by default, which is <somehow> less secure than not having a sandbox at all” and “this one app I like doesn’t work in flatpak, therefore all of it is bad”.

      …unless it literally is a joke and I’m just missing out on the sarcasm?

      • user@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        Its only worse than not having it at all in the sense of giving users a false sense of security. Imagine if apps on mobile could decide what permissions they want automatically granted without the user opting in. The sandbox HAS to be enforced by default to be good. And the other issue with flatpak is the security, which we had several problems with in the past. On the same note, people criticise snap but its a much more competent solution from a technical standpoint regarding security and since people get all their apps from flathub anyways, the “propreitary” backend is mostly irrelevant. And before anyone says “snap store had malware hosted” that is not an issue with the format itself but the infrastructure.

        • renzev@lemmy.worldOP
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          2 days ago

          Its only worse than not having it at all in the sense of giving users a false sense of security.

          Flathub’s website has a bigass banner telling you if an app requires permissions that they consider dangerous. And flatpak’s CLI tells you what permissions are needed when installing an app. It’s pretty hard to miss, no?

          • user@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            This is still not a reason to automatically grant them. This permission model is fundamentally flawed. Besides, the CLI doesn’t even show these.

        • user@lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          Also. Maintaining snap packages are easier for developers, and companies, therefore they are more likely to distribute apps on Linux to begin with.

  • Itdidnttrickledown@lemmy.world
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    6 days ago

    I’ve never used it. Its like all the others though and I have been forced to use snaps. Those I slowly replace every time I decide to start fresh.

  • TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    Flatpaks aren’t perfect, but I think it’s a good solution to the fragmentation problem that is inherent to Linux.

    • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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      7 days ago

      Precisely. Flatpaks solve an important problem. Perfect should not be the enemy of good.

      Binary compatibility is a sad story on Linux, and we cannot expect developers — many of whom work for free — to package, test, debug, and maintain releases for multiple distributions. If we want a sustainable ecosystem with diverse distributions, we must answer the compatibility question. This is a working option that solves the problem, and it comes with minor security benefits because it isolates applications not just from the system but from each other.

      It’s fair to criticize a solution, but I think it’s not fair to ignore the problem and expect volunteers to just work harder.

      • nexussapphire@lemm.ee
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        7 days ago

        Also companies are lazy and if we don’t want to be stuck on Ubuntu for proprietary app stability. We should probably embrace something like flatpak. Also when companies neglect their apps, it’ll have a better chance of working down the road thanks to support for multiple dependency versions on the same install.

        • henfredemars@infosec.pub
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          7 days ago

          Great point! At the end of the day, the apps I want to use will decide which distro I main. Many FOSS fanatics are quick to critique Ubuntu, So they should support solutions that allow our distro to be diverse and use all the killer apps.

    • ian@feddit.uk
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      7 days ago

      Not great to laugh at the mess Linux is in, due to people paddling in different, incompatible, directions. Users can’t choose the package format. They have to take what they are given. Good or bad. I don’t care which format. As long as it works. But this is a good way to scare more people off of Linux.

      • oo1@lemmings.world
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        6 days ago

        laughs at people scared of choice and “mess” . . .

        If they’re switcing to linux they should first come to know about open source forking around - arguably - one of the most important features of the whole thing.

        If they don’t wan’t that choice and all that inevitable open source forkery, they probably should go for an apple mac or windows or something like that. And maybe they will have to pay for some software for the privilege because it takes work to do those things. They can of course try plain old ubuntu and do stuff the way canonical wants, that removes quite a bit of choice if it is otherwise too terrifying for them.

        But in general, I don’t think its a good idea to to try to sell pig-carcasses to vegans by painting them the colours of broccoli.

    • nexussapphire@lemm.ee
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      7 days ago

      I like the aur too but a proprietary app that isn’t updated to support newer dependencies, it most likely won’t run anyway. At that point it’s either broken app, broken system, or you don’t have anything else installed using that library(yet).

        • nexussapphire@lemm.ee
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          7 days ago

          Sounds neat! Don’t really care much for messing with config files for hours. This is from someone who uses arch on all his systems. I’ve been in config hell for a while, I use kde now.

  • macniel@feddit.org
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    8 days ago

    Flatpak is nice but I really would like to see a way to run flatpakked application transparently e.g. don’t have to

        flatpak run org.gnome.Lollypop
    

    and can just run the app via

        Lollypop
    
    • grue@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      You could make aliases for each program, but I agree, there should be a way to set it up so they resolve automatically.

      • mutter9355@discuss.tchncs.de
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        7 days ago

        You could possibly also make a shell script that does this automatically. I believe most flatpak ids follow a pattern such as com.github.user.package, for github projects for example. So you could loop through all installed flatpaks, extract the name, and then add the alias.

        • grue@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          Agreed, but I also feel like such a thing should be included with Flatpak by default instead of leaving it to the users to solve.

    • d_k_bo@feddit.org
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      7 days ago

      You can symlink /var/lib/flatpak/exports/bin/org.gnome.Lollypop (if you are using a system installation) or ~/.local/share/flatpak/exports/bin/org.gnome.Lollypop (if you are using a uset installation) to ~/.local/bin/lollypop and run it as lollypop.

    • Ananace@lemmy.ananace.dev
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      7 days ago

      Well, Flatpak installs aliases, so as long as your distribution - or yourself - add the <installation>/exports/bin path to $PATH, then you’ll be able to use the application IDs to launch them.

      And if you want to have the Flatpak available under a different name than its ID, you can always symlink the exported bin to whatever name you’d personally prefer.
      I’ve got Blender set up that way myself, with the org.blender.Blender bin symlinked to /usr/local/bin/blender, so that some older applications that expect to be able to simply interop with it are able to.

        • Ananace@lemmy.ananace.dev
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          7 days ago

          Well, Flatpak always builds the aliases, so as long as the <installation>/exports/bin folder is in $PATH there’s no need to symlink.

          If you’re talking specifically about having symlinks with some arbitrary name that you prefer, then that’s something you’ll have to do yourself, the Flatpak applications only provide their canonical name after all.
          You could probably do something like that with inotify and a simple script though, just point it at the exports/bin folders for the installations that you care about, and set up your own mapping between canonical names and whatever names you prefer.

    • Qkall@lemmy.ml
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      8 days ago

      I just run them raw, like just

      org.gnome.Lollypop

      Not ideal, but it’s what I do

  • BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca
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    7 days ago

    If I can choose between flatpack and distro package, distro wins hands down.

    If the choice then is flatpack vs compile your own, I think I’ll generally compile it, but it depends on the circumstances.

      • BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca
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        7 days ago

        Because it’s easier to use the version that’s in the distro, and why do I need an extra set of libraries filling up my disk.

        I see flatpack as a last resort, where I trade disk space for convenience, because you end up with a whole OS worth of flatpack dependencies (10+ GB) on your disk after a few upgrade cycles.

          • BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca
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            7 days ago

            Yep that’s all well and good, but what flatpack doesn’t do automatically is clean up unused libs/dependencies, over time you end up with several versions of the same libs. When the apps are upgraded they get the latest version of their dependency and leave the old behind.

        • F04118F@feddit.nl
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          7 days ago

          Is compiling it yourself with the time and effort that it costs worth more than a few GB of disk space?

          Then your disk is very expensive and your labor very cheap.

          • cley_faye@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            For a lot of project “compiling yourself”, while obviously more involved than running some magic install command, is really not that tedious. Good projects have decent documentation in that regard and usually streamline everything down to a few things to configure and be done with it.

            What’s aggravating is projects that explicitly go out of their way to make building them difficult, removing existing documentation and helper tools and replacing them with “use whatever we decided to use”. I hate these.

          • BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca
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            7 days ago

            I should have noted that I’ll compile myself when we are talking about something that should run as a service on a server.

          • recarsion@discuss.tchncs.de
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            7 days ago

            99% of the time it’s just “make && sudo make install” or something like that. Anything bigger or more complicated typically has a native package anyway.

          • ReveredOxygen@sh.itjust.works
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            7 days ago

            They didn’t say anything about compiling it themselves, just that they prefer native packages to flatpak

            edit: I can’t read

            • Batbro@sh.itjust.works
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              7 days ago

              2 comments up they said

              If the choice then is flatpack vs compile your own, I think I’ll generally compile it, but it depends on the circumstances.

        • TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org
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          7 days ago

          I mean it’s 2024. I regularly download archives that are several tens or even over 100 GB and then completely forget they’re sitting on my drive, because I don’t notice it when the drive is 4TB. Last time I cared about 10GB here and there was in the late-2000s.

          • azenyr@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            I don’t know what dependencies he has but my 3 year old system that is constantly being updated is full of flatpaks and all of the dependencies combined are only around 3GB. People see 1GB of dependencies and lose their mind.

    • azenyr@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      I change my opinion depending on which app it is. I use KDE, so any KDE app will be installed natively for sure for perfect integration. Stuff like grub costumizer etc all native. Steam, Lutris, GIMP, Discord, chrome, firefox, telegram? Flatpak, all of those. They don’t need perfect integration and I prefer the stability, easy upgrades and ease of uninstall of flatpak. Native is used when OS integration is a must. Flatpak for everything else. Especially since sometimes the distro’s package is months/years old… prefering distro packages for everything should be a thing of the past.

    • Norgur@fedia.io
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      8 days ago

      glibc 2.36 is all you’ll ever need, okay? Go away with those goddamn backports!

  • e8d79@discuss.tchncs.de
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    7 days ago

    Haters aren’t worth listening to. Doesn’t matter if it is flatpak, systemd, wayland, or whatever else. These people have no interest in a discussion about merits and drawbacks of a given solution. They just want to be angry about something.

    • renzev@lemmy.worldOP
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      7 days ago

      I know, right!? Add gimp to that list as well. I can go on and on about shortcomings of gimp despite being a happy user. The average gimp hater, on the other hand, doesn’t have anything to say besides “the UI is dumb and I can’t figure out how to draw a circle”

            • uis@lemm.ee
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              7 days ago

              They call it “intuitive UI”, Linus calls it “‘users are idiots, and are confused by functionality’ mentality of Gnome”

              • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
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                6 days ago

                kate editor would like to have a word… They did my lady kate dirty with the latest updates :( The top level File menu was so much better and now I don’t know where to find the configuration to get that back, and have on my work computer a stupid single button in the top right corner which opens the “menu bar”, except vertically…

              • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                What I mean is, makingg a UI more intuitive does not necessarily make it more… Gnome-ey? It can still be effective, customizable, etc.

                • uis@lemm.ee
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                  7 days ago

                  “Intuitive UI” crowd usually means Gnome-ey/Apple-ey design.

                  In reality customizable design is more intuitive, because you can customize it to your intuition.

    • someacnt_@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      Wayland gets the hate because compositors are authoritative so you cannot e.g. install your own window manager, taskbar, etc. It would be good if there were specifications governing these, but there isn’t.

  • umbraroze@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    I’m a Debian fan, and even I think it’s absolutely preferable that app developers publish a Flatpak over the mildly janky mess of adding a new APT source. (It used to be simple and beautiful, just stick a new file in APT sources. Now Debian insists we add the GPG keys manually. Like cavemen.)

    • jabjoe@feddit.uk
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      7 days ago

      Someone got to say it…

      There is no Debian if everything was a pile of Snaps/Flatpack/Docker/etc. Debian is the packaging and process that packaging is put through. Plus their FOSS guidelines.

      So sure, if it’s something new and dev’y, it should isolate the dependencies mess. But when it’s mature, sort out the dependencies and get it into Debian, and thus all downstream of it.

      I don’t want to go back to app-folders. They end up with a missmash of duplicate old or whacky lib. It’s bloaty, insecure and messy. Gift wrapping the mess in containers and VM, mitigates some of security issues, but brings more bloat and other issues.

      I love FOSS package management. All the dependencies, in a database, with source and build dependencies. All building so there is one copy of a lib. All updating together. It’s like an OS ecosystem utopia. It doesn’t get the appreciation it should.

    • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      Now Debian insists we add the GPG keys manually. Like cavemen.)

      Erm. Would you rather have debian auto-trust a bunch of third party people? It’s up to the user to decide whose keys they want on their system and whose packages they would accept if signed by what key.

      • umbraroze@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        Not “auto trust”, of course, but rather make adding keys is a bit smoother. As in “OK, there’s this key on the web site with this weird short hex cookie. Enter this simple command to add the key. Make sure signature it spits out is the same on the web page. If it matches, hit Yes.”

        And maybe this could be baked somehow to the whole APT source adding process. “To add the source to APT, use apt-source-addinate https://deb.example.com/thingamabob.apt. Make sure the key displayed is 0x123456789ABC by Thingamabob Team with received key signature 0xCBA9876654321.”

        • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          For the keys - do you mean something like

          sudo apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys 00000000 where 00000000 is replaced with the fingerprint of the key you want to fetch?

          I do agree - the apt-key command is kinda dangerous because it imports keys that will be generally trusted, IIRC. So a similar command to fetch a key by fingerprint for it to be available to choose as signing keys for repositories that we configure for a single application (suite) would be nice.

          I always disliked that signing keys are available for download from the same websites that have the repository. What’s the point in that? If someone can inject malicious code in the repository, they sure as hell can generate a matching signing key & sign the code with that.

          Hence I always verify signing keys / fingerprints against somewhat trustworthy third parties.

          What we really need though is a crowdsourced, reputation-based code review system. Where open source code is stored in git-like versioning history, and has clear documentations for each function what it should and should not do. And a reviewer can pick as little as an individual function and review the code to confirm (or refute) that the function

          1. does exactly what the interface documentation claims it does
          2. does nothing else
          3. performs input validation (range checks etc)
          4. is well-written (in terms of performance)

          Then, your reputation score would increase according to other users concurring with your assessment (or decrease if people disagree), and your reputation can be used as a weighting factor in contributing to the “review thoroughness” of a code module that you reviewed. E.g.: a user with a reputation of 0.5 confirms that a module does exactly what it claims to do: Module gets review count +1, module gets new total score of +0.5, new total weight of ( combined previous weights + 0.5 ) and the average review score is “reviews total score” / “total weight”.

          Something like that. And if you have a reputation of “0.9”, the review count goes +1, total score +0.9, total weight +0.9 (so the average score stays between 0 and 1).

          Independent of the user reputation, the user’s review conclusion is stored as “1” (= performs as claimed) or “0” (= does not perform as claimed) for this module.

          Reputation of reviewers could be calculated as the sum of all their individual review scores (at the time the reputation is needed), where the score they get is 1 minus the absolute difference between the average review score of a reviewed module and their own review conclusion.

          E.g. User A concludes: module does what it claims to do: User A assessment is 1 (score for the module) User B concludes: module does NOT what it claims to do: User B assessment is 0 (score)

          Module score is 0.8 (most reviewers agreed that it does what it claims to do)

          User A reputation gained from their review of this module is 1 - abs( 1 - 0.8 ) = 0.8 User B reputation gained from their review of this module is 1 - abs( 0 - 0.8 ) = 0.2

          If both users have previously gained a reputation of 1.0 from 10 reviews (where everyone agreed on the same assessment, thus full scores):

          User A new reputation: ( 1 * 10 + 0.8 ) / 11 = 0.982 User B new reputation: ( 1 * 10 + 0.2 ) / 11 = 0.927

          The basic idea being that all modules in the decentralized review database would have a review count which everyone could filter by, and find the least-reviewed modules (presumably weakest links) to focus their attention on.

          If technically feasible, a decentralized database should prevent any given entity (secret services, botfarms) to falsify the overall review picture too much. I am not sure this can be accomplished - especially with the sophistication of the climate-destroying large language model technology. :/